Before getting into the second Dog Whisperer commentary, I’d like to respond to a couple of comments from the first.
I read that if I want to prove Cesar wrong I should film myself working with dogs that have the same problems. Passing over the obvious logistical and production issues, my real answer is this: I don’t have anything to prove. I’m not the one questioning behavioral science. I’m watching the show, providing commentary, and explaining what many other trainers would do in these situations. (In addition to pointing out the things I do like.) Filming me working dogs would make it small-time trainer from Jersey vs. big-time Hollywood trainer.
If you doubt the methods I propose, feel free to do your own research. But keep in mind, watching more of the reality show with a dog trainer in it isn’t really research. And please, tell me where I am wrong in the comments. Unlike some, I am willing to publicly confront criticism and learn from it.
There was another criticism, one that made me literally laugh out loud. A week or so after the first commentary, I came across a blog with the standard “trainers who condemn Cesar are close-minded and should consider his methods more closely” complaint. I commented, explaining that I had considered his methods and provided a link to the commentary. Part of his response to my comment were words to the effect that it was strange that I spent so much time scrutinizing the show. (I wish I hadn’t lost the link, if you’re reading this, please put it in the comments.)
Isn’t that priceless? We should consider Cesar’s methods…but not spend too much time actually looking at them. Too sciencey I guess.
Two more housekeeping bits:
Rather than go with the latest show, I am going to stick to relatively recent shows that can be watched on nationalgeographic.com Hopefully they will stay live long enough that most people can watch the show when they read the post. The Cesar Millan “channel” is here. I can’t embed the videos. They offer the code, but the embeds do not work.
Also, I’m still tweaking the format. Trying to follow the flow of the show is very difficult. The last post is 2834 words, edited down from over 6000. In addition to taking a long time to write, most people just won’t read that much. I’m going to try to take a “big picture” view this time. I may leave things out. If you feel that I left something important out, please leave a comment.
“Baby Girl” is another episode that only covers a single dog. I selected it because it deals with fearfulness, an area where Cesar takes a lot of heat from his critics. Baby Girl (BG) is a doberman mix that Suzie brought home from a rescue. From the very first day BG displayed extreme fear for any new sights or sounds. She would refuse to enter the kitchen if a cabinet door was open or a drawer was ajar. Suzie lives near Disneyland, and the nightly (?) fireworks are always traumatic for BG. While it was not stated explicitly, I’d wager that travel outside of the home was equally stressful for BG.
Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon situation for rescue dogs. Fearfulness can have a few causes, but one of the more common is a lack of socialization during early puppyhood. This socialization is so critical that the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior has issued a position statement explaining that they consider lack of socialization more of threat to dogs than infectious disease. As you might imagine, many unwanted and stray dogs do not get the socialization they need as puppies.
Another important factor is genetics. Extreme sensitivity can manifest from birth, especially in certain breeds such as some herding breeds and the “sighthounds,” including greyhounds. As we’ll see, Baby Girl seems to have some greyhound in her.
For some great information on how to live with and train fearful dogs, check out fearfuldogs.com.
During the initial interview Suzie mentions another fearful dog that Cesar handled in an earlier show. I haven’t seen this episode. In the flashback we see a “virtual reality” rig which includes a treadmill and a lot of loud noise. More on this in a bit.
There is no discussion of any methods that Suzie has tried before and no mention of a vet visit to check for physiological problems.
Cesar decides that he can best address BG’s needs back at his compound, so he takes her there. The first step is to introduce her to some of the dogs on the compound or, as Cesar says.
…let’s see what the pack feels about it, you know, what energy they feel she is.
Sigh. We’re back in the mysterious energy zone.
In case it wasn’t obvious enough last time, I’m not into the woo. Lots of dog people are. Many of my friends and people I have learned from are, but I’m just not a woo person. Sorry.
Cesar starts out with BG in an adjacent area (which is a good idea). BG seems much more interested in (and overwhelmed by) her new surroundings than the other dogs. She seems to be looking for an escape route at one point.
When she is first let in with the other dogs, she moves around a lot and is clearly trying to avoid being surrounded by the other dogs. As he is shifting and dodging, her tail comes up from between her legs, maybe because of the motion, maybe because she is so focused on her surrounding that those muscles actually relax. Cesar sees this and says “Look at the tail, verry happy!” (Here is a clip, at least until it is taken down. I feel that 57 seconds falls under fair use.)
Sigh. Dog Body Language 101: never just look at one body part. Her tail may have come out from between her legs, but she is actively avoiding the other dogs!
When one dog tries to mount her, she issues a very well controlled and appropriate correction. The other dogs give her some distance, in what I feel is a great display of control. Cesar says: …obviously her energy is not good.”
I don’t want to overdo the “sigh” thing, but sigh.
Cesar waits a few days to get her integrated in the “pack.” This is a good thing. While many trainers that do a board-and-train probably don’t have the luxury of time that Cesar has, letting a fearful dog get acclimated to a new environment is a good idea.
But I can’t say that about the next part of BG’s “treatment.” Cesar takes her to a treadmill that is installed in a trailer and surrounded by a big screen and what seems to be a pretty impressive sound system. He has prepared tapes of things that BG is afraid of, along with a tape of Suzie to “calm her.” He uses this to force her to walk the treadmill while “dealing with” the things that she fears. On the treadmill her head is down low, her posture is low and her tail alternates between low and tucked against her abdomen. She looks miserable, even when Cesar plays the recording of Suzie.
This is called flooding. Flooding is a technique where a subject is forced to face his fears until he loses the fearful response. For example, if you are afraid if spiders or snakes, I could lock you in a room full of them and not let you out until you no longer seem afraid. This is, needless to say, a controversial technique. Some say it doesn’t work, others (including me) say that while it may work, it’s not humane and that there are better alternatives.
One of the better methods, which I may as well discuss here, are counter-conditioning and desensitization.
Desensitization gradually reduces the intensity of a response to an undesirable (to the subject) stimulus. This is done by gradually exposing the subject to low levels of the stimulus. For example, since BG is afraid of balloons, she could be exposed to them at a distance until she no longer responds, and then the distance could be shortened.
This process is almost always paired with counter conditioning, which is an application of classical or pavlovian conditioning. BG already has an association – balloons and fear. This association could be gradually changed, or countered, by pairing the desensitization with something good, such as very yummy treats.
When implementing these methods one also needs to be aware of the threshold model. When individuals react to stimuli that elicit intense fear (or aggression, BTW) there is a threshold beyond which learning is severely (if not completely) impaired. Where this threshold is varies from dog to dog, and that’s really where there is no substitute for experience when it comes to implementing behavior modification.
Of course if you lack the knowledge, experience doesn’t really matter.
These concepts are firmly rooted in behavioral science and apply to many different species. Poke around the Internet or your neighborhood library for more information on them. For further information on how they relate to dogs, check out How Dogs Learn (which has a short section on it) and/or Excel-Erated Learning (which has much more information.)
Counter-conditioning and Desensitization (CC & DS) are very simple concepts that can be very difficult to implement. For one thing, it usually takes a very, very long time. This leads to people giving up. It’s easy to screw up, by either proceeding too slowly or crossing the threshold too often, which leads to no results and again, people giving up. It also leads to crappy TV, because let’s face it, the interesting bits only happen when you can see exactly what you should not: an intense response.
Back at the “virtual reality trailer,” Cesar introduces new sounds and BG is startled every time. Eventually Cesar has some assistants bring in a large string of balloons. BG is so startled she falls off the treadmill. Cesar puts her back on and is shown saying:
“If I do baby steps, I’m just going to make her more and more fearful.”
Sigh. Cesar obviously disagrees with CC & DS. He doesn’t bother to explain the logic behind this assertion at all. It has the sound and feel of common sense, unfortunately that’s not enough to make it right.
I don’t have much more to say about the treadmill. It is revisited several times during the episode. Whether it works or not, I think it is too stressful and arguably inhumane.
When we cut away to the next commercial break, we see Baby Girl happily running alongside Cesar. She does seem to trust him and like him.
Next, Cesar takes BG to a greyhound rescue. This is a really nice idea. She very quickly warms up to the greyhounds, and seems to enjoy running and playing with them. Dogs of similar breeds do tend to play the same way. It makes sense: greyhounds are literally bred to run and chase so running and chasing each other would tend to come naturally.
Cesar tends to take a “whole dog” approach to his behavior programs, and this little slice of greyhound life is a part of that. I like this “whole dog” view of Cesar’s a lot. It’s just some of the connections he makes that concern me.
For the next month or so, Cesar takes BG everywhere with him. We see them walking and we see her on a behavior consult with him. While some of my colleagues might disagree, I have to say I think this may not be a bad idea. While the consult, with the other dog displaying aggressive behavior toward BG, looks very risky and is a bad example, getting BG out and about after being confined to Suzie’s house might just be a big part of what she needs. There is, of course, a risk of her getting over threshold too often, but I can see some merit in exposing her to natural situations on a regular basis, in a controlled and safe fashion.
Cesar has an interesting solution to the tucked tail issue.
Interesting. Does the mind follow the body in this case? It’s not necessarily a harmful thing, but I would feel funny suggesting it. Cesar speaks very definitively about it, as if he knows that this works.
Half way into the show, we find that Baby Girl has not been eating and has lost weight throughout her stay. At first it’s not clear when this started, but later on we find that BG has always been an unenthusiastic eater. Cesar puts a lot of effort into getting her to eat, including consulting a vet (finally!) and trying a variety of foods. He shows some great flexibility and a willingness to adjust his normally rigid rules to work with BG. At the end of the episode Suzie shows him how she handles it. The drama portrayed within this subplot seems a little contrived to me – I find it hard to believe that in the 92 days that Baby Girl stayed at Cesar’s he never spoke to Suzie about her reluctance to eat.
Cesar takes Baby Girl to a pool next. She cannot tuck her tail while under water. Cesar thinks this can help with the fear. No, I’m not kidding.
This is taking shaping the mind with the body a bit too far. Also, as he effectively forces her into the pool, he reads small changes in tail carriage tail as significant changes in state of mind, even while she struggles against being pulled into the pool!
And what exactly does “the brain in a forward state” mean?
Cesar is ready to return BG to Suzie now. We see her playing outside, and clearly she is a different dog. However, there is a thunderstorm and BG has a severe reaction.
Thunderphobia can be a very serious issue. At a seminar I attended given by veterinary behaviorist Dr. Nicholas Dodman, fear of thunder storms rated it’s own hour long presentation. There is also some peer-reviewed literature on the topic.
Some of the recommendations I found in a quick search are:
- Desensitization to storm sounds. This is considered very difficult.
- Create a “safe haven” for your dog during storms. Try to diminish the sound and view of lightning there and create a positive association with this place.
- Medication. See you vet, I will not recommend, or even list, any medicine here.
- Jackets, such as the ThunderShirt. (I have had some success with this with one of my dogs.)
At the seminar, Dr. Dodman specifically called out flooding as risky and not recommended for thunderphobia and other fear problems.
Cesar finally does return Baby Girl home, and we see a 7 month follow up. Baby Girl is very much improved, and there’s really little doubt that Cesar helped her. (I still don’t think she looks at all happy on treadmill though.)
I can’t say whether or not the treadmill helped or hindered Baby Girl’s progress. But I will say this again: it’s not something I would use. I feel that the socialization Cesar provided by taking her with him around the city, and the time she spent with other dogs helped her a lot.
Here’s a thought: is it possible that the “virtual reality trailer” was just included to keep the show interesting? The real work, 90+ days of socialization, was probably pretty boring and would not have made good TV.
So that’s the second commentary, and it’s still over 2500 words. I left quite a bit out, but I think it is a pretty good description of what happened.
What do you think? Please leave a comment below!
Actually I think Ceaser has it totally going on…that is right after he uses this theory on a Wolf. Yes a wolf. Since his theory is based on “dog as wolf” and dominance, I want to see him put his money where his mouth is. I want to see him use the same methods he used on that Alaskan Malamute — which he stands firmly behind. I want him to then turn his back and walk confidently away with his back turned.
I then want him to train just one bear for a quick documentary on bear training for the movies or what ever….
After he does this I will say wow look how great he truly is. Until then I will stay with the science that is up to date and not based on the 50's or older.
good job, Eric. I really applaud your willingness and dedication to pointing out what is good in these episodes. No one can be wrong ALL the time, even Cesar, and while I find it hard to admit when he does something right, it is more informative than just bashing. Here's to being the bigger man! *raising my coffee cup to you* That being said….sigh. Time to return to the think tank to conceive of a “dramatic” way to make positive training just as watchable and enticing.
In the comments section of another site one of Cesar's more rabid defenders asserted that ALL mammals move in packs….bear training would be an interesting way to (dis)prove that one….
As Karen Pryor puts it dominance is important to one and only one animal, man. You can toss in any animal you wish really…bears are readily available, use a whale, bob cat, lion etc. If what he says is so spot on, it will work-especially if all animals are pack animals…I keep waiting for this episode…you know the bear one..
“What do you think?”
I think Cesar is very lucky he didn't end up cleaning diarrhea off of his “virtual reality trainer”, or if he did, they certainly didn't include that in the commentary. I can hear it now: “Baby Girl calm-submissively sh*ts on Cesar's treadmill. He shows his dominance by ordering a stage hand to clean it up.”
The worst part is that the average Cesar fan is going to ignore the 90-day 'socialization' program and go straight for balloons hanging over the treadmill. Unfortunately, they won't have stage hands to help with the mess.
Excellent summary. Thank you for sharing!
Yes, it's always the most dramatic bits that are remembered, especially when they have sexy names like “virtual reality.”
Great commentary Eric!
I'd just like to add that applying flooding as a method for treating a fearful dog easily leads to what is called “Learned Helplessness” (http://www.docpotter.com/boclass-25helplessness…).
In my view Cesar very dangerously labels a dog's behaviour as being “calm submissive” when in fact it is learned helplessness. The dog has been pushed to the point where any reaction to the stimulus has been suppressed.
Therefore the dog's emotional response to the stimulus has not been changed from a negative one to a positive one.
Whereas, as you point out, a positive reinforcement trainer would apply desensitisation and counter conditioning, and use “baby steps” to change the dog's emotional response to a positive one.
Angela
If Cesar could actually recognize and educate the public about the value of the long term socialization, why then he might be talking some sense. But these are not the methods that make the show what it is, reality TV. Credit to Eric as well for rationally applying science of learning theory in discussions; it is all about the science, well, to us anyways. Even though Eric is generous in crediting sound ideas to Cesar, he will always be a Cesar basher to fans of the charismatic entertainer. Our strength lays in the positive dog training world in general continuing to pool resources, in demonstrating the effectiveness of science based learning, and rationally disputing outdated, dangerous and inhumane “training.” None of us should ever let up. Eric is a great inspiration to all of us. To me, the saddest way of receiving business is from someone who has attempted to replicate what they have seen on T.V, and have ended up compounding existing issues.
That would be one of the things I left out. Thanks for pointing it out.
What I don't now, and I am not sure if I want to, is what learned helplessness really looks like. That's one reason I stayed away from it.
I also read a very interesting article over at members.behavioreducationnetwork.com ($$ account required) about learned helplessness. Dr. Suzanne Hetts indicated that the dogs in the original experiment regained their ability to escape in 24 hours and theorized that it may have been a physiological issue. It's something I'd like to do more research into….in my copious free time.
Thanks for the kind words Leslie! As I was writing the commentary I got a call from someone with a very very serious aggression issue….and a story about how some techniques (s)he saw on TV didn't work…we need to examine the show and understand it, at least as long it is part of the public consciousness.
There's actually some controversy as to whether “learned helplessness” actually exists as it's been described in the literature. My opinion: “it's a convenient label that describes a particular emotional and behavioral demeanor well.” “Shut down” is another good description.
You can see some measure of being “shut down” in many dogs trained with overly harsh “corrections” or punishments. They've learned that behavior can lead to punishment, so they stick with “safe” behaviors. When they're uncertain as to what's a “safe” behavior in the current situation, they often choose to do nothing.
I've seen some really shut-down dogs where there was very little behavior at all. When being “shut down” is taken to the extreme, I think you can call it “learned helplessness.”
One of my clients adopted an Australian Shepherd that had been a conformation show dog in Italy. When in the presence of humans, she did “nothing.” She would stand stock-still (no matter what the people around her were doing), or she would go slowly go to the farthest corner she could and lie down (if no one stopped her). If you picked up a paw and set it down elsewhere on the ground, she'd maintain that new position. No eye contact, no look-aways (as you'd expect from a dog who was fearful or socially uncomfortable), no shifting of weight — nothing. She was breathing and keeping her position and that was about all. If you gave her a treat she'd take it very gently and swallow, with pretty much the minimum movement necessary to do so. It was heartbreaking to watch her. Her face was expressionless — nothing that I'd call fear, or concern, or even interest in her surroundings. Her face was smooth (but not in an “I'm relaxed and have no cares in the world” way — just blank!).
With other dogs in the yard and people out of the yard, she'd loosen up a bit and show some more normal behavior — just watching the other dogs first, later slowly following them around — but very little play or interactions with the other dogs.
I had the client start playing “101 things to do with a dog” — simply clicking and feeding for /anything/ the dog did. If she breathed deeply, she got clicked. If she blinked, she got clicked. If she shifted her weight, she got clicked. If she moved even a little, she got clicked. She couldn't lose!
Within 10 minutes, the dog sat down without being told to. Jackpot! After that she started looking around (click and treat for looking at /anything!/ and jackpot if she looked at the owner). And after that she stood up (another jackpot!) and started giving the owner eye contact (jackpot again!).
A week later she was getting clicked & treated for: Jumping up on the owner, barking, stealing an old pair of pants out of the trash (she was allowed to keep the pants, which she carried around proudly for several days), again, she couldn't lose!
And when the owner deemed the dog's behavior was “normal” (i.e. the full range of behaviors dogs normally show in a home environment), she started getting picky about what she'd click & treat.
A week after /that/ I got a picture of the dog emerging from an agility tunnel, a HUGE grin on her face, tongue lolling, body and face a picture of grace and movement and joy.
The owner reported that it was easy as pie to get rid of the jumping & trash stealing and other “bad behaviors” she'd reinforced the dog to do as a way to get her fully back to normal, psychologically. She simply stopped reinforcing those behaviors and they quickly went away.
That was an extreme case of learned helplessness – the dog would do /nothing/ no matter what you were doing to her.
But you can recognize a less extreme “shut down” dog, too. It's easily mistaken for “calm obedience.” The trouble is, while I can recognize a “shut down” dog, I'm not sure I can point to any one or even several things that are the clues I'm using to determine that a dog's “shut down.”
I think it boils down to the “quality” of the lack of movement/behavior/affectation on the dog's part. A dog who's lying down, relaxed and resting, “feels” different to me when I look at them from a dog who's lying down in the same body position but is “shut down.” It's hard to quantify, which is why it's hard to show someone who's convinced that they're seeing “calm obedience” when I see “depressed, shut down dog.”
Having a fearful dog, I'm very familiar with “shut down.” Gage used to go into a lot of “busy loops” ( use a lot of IT terminology. Caffeine “pins her CPU”, which is very different.)
“Learned helplessness” always seemed to describe something more, like some sort of catatonia or fugue state. What you are saying seems to jibe with what Suzanne Hetts wrote; that that the term could be being overused.
What you describe with the Aussie is great. Gage couldn't handle “101 things with a box.” Changing it to “101 things with a dog” is an interesting spin.
I really appreciate the balanced and instructive commentary, with the important peer-reviewed literature and other links that further explain the basis for it. Looking at your field from the outside, I can say that there has been a lot of confusion about the arguments within the training field about CM's methods, leaving a lot of people trying to figure out what the difference actually was, having a lot of trouble seeing it.
It is unfortunately true that people don't have time and often don't give full attention to these issues–after all, they believe that the training they have done has worked, and change is hard. Then one day, something someone says or does just clicks and that starts the journey. I think what you are presenting here is going to do just that–open many eyes, minds, and hearts to the difference btw training as a good experience that lasts a lifetime, and the “do it because I told you to” old school dominance approach.Your thoughtful, forthright approach and willingness to give CM props when deserved will make this new information more easily understood and accepted by those caught up in the “magic” of a television production.
Thanks for the citations on thunderphobia. I have a dog with that issue and further reading is much appreciated.
Wow I loved this post.. I've always had issues with Caesar. Some of his methods are effective some are…Well that's not why I'm commenting.
I'm an amateur dog trainer. I specialize in small breeds mainly Chihuahuas and Yorkies. And your brought up a point in your post about counter-conditioning and desensitization. And I use this method alot. I just didn't know there was an official term on it. See I train smaller dogs to ride as passengers on motorcycles. I actually started doing this by accident. I was at home working with my first chihuahua Spencer on basic obedience while my wife was at work. She was using our only car.
Well Spencer in our playing outside took a tumble down our porch and broke his paw and I freaked out. It was sunday and the only thing open was the emergency vet and I had no car. But I had my motorcycle. I quickly strapped down a pet carrier to the back seat padded it with towels and put spencer in the carrier (I put in the towels in an attempt from jarring him around and hurting his paw/leg more) I crank up my bike and he freaks out. I never knew the loud sound of my bike bothered him. But at this point I had no choice couldn't get ahold of my wife so I beared with it and toted him on the back of my Bike to the ER Vet. He got patched up put on some nice meds and it was easy to get him home. I thought to myself that this possibly won't be the only time my only transportation is my motorcycle. So I need to get him accustomed to it. Hence, I began training my dogs to ride as passengers on motorcycles.
My method usually involves playing around the uncranked motorcycle and feeding them treats to make them comfortable. Then playing around with it cranked again building positive reinforcement to it. Then I sit them on the bike and treat them with it cranked. Then I start revving it with them on the bike. Until they are no longer afraid of the motorcycle. Then I slowly take them for slow rides around our neighborhood. This process takes anywhere from 1 month – 3 months with a fearful dog. I even used this method to desensitize a dachshund that was afraid of lightning/thunder. But when I'm through you usually have a riding buddy that sees the bike as another chance to have fun and spend time with you. Spencer has been riding with me for almost 6 years now.
And this simple mishap is what got me into wanting to be a dog trainer. I also create dog carriers for motorcycles and other dog and motorcycle apparel. Its really nice to put terminology to what I've been doing all along. counter-conditioning and desensitization.
Oh I love the blog too!
Thank you for commenting! Yes, there's an official term for it. It's great that you are already “listening” to your dogs rather than trying to force the issue. You'd probably find the bogs I linked to useful. Another great site is http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com .
Thanks for this post, Eric.
I personally would LOVE to see a show on the “90-day socialization process”!
Probably many people would, but that doesn't seem to be the sort of TV NGC is interested in producing.
I thought that BabyGirl had a bit of a doomed, exhausted look on her face during the entire show with the exception of when she was with the greyhounds. In fact, she had the same look that my father had after enduring chemo shortly before he died of lung cancer. She seemed to be saying “Oh please…just let this be over.” Therefore, while I was sad to see that she had died, I was not surprised.
There are a few times that Baby Girl seems very shut down, and I think that Cesar often interprets this a calm, rather than terror or resignation.
Are you saying Baby Girl died, or is there a pronoun mix up?
Hi Eric. Yes, Baby Girl died of bone cancer four months after Cesar's last visit. I saw this episode for the first time last night and there was a statement to that effect at the end. I fell in love with Baby Girl and started googling to learn more about her. That's how I found your blog as well as a number of articles criticizing Cesar's training methods. I like your even-handed approach to his work with BG. I too was concerned about his “assault” on her in the virtual trailer (“which I now know is called 'flooding'). I agree with your assessment that she shuts down in those segments. I guess the learning is that after the terrors in the trailer, the home treadmill and daily fireworks at Disney seems nothing to get fussed up over. I've certainly had the experience kayaking in Alaska. After the terror of 8-foot waves, the 3-footers that I was scared at the beginning of our expedition no longer concerned me! I was actually touched by the second half of the pool scene that you didn't use in your clip: while she is terrified after being tugged in, she immediately goes to Cesar and he offers her his arms to support her paws. Then he gives her a full body hug and she immediately relaxes. However, I seriously doubt that she conquered her fear of the water or swimming as a result!
It does seem that BabyGirl was helped overall by Cesar but as you say, it was probably despite the flooding and the swimming and more because of the exercise and socialization. He probably could have achieved better results over 6 months with positive reinforcement conditioning and desensitizing techniques. And maybe BabyGirl would not have developed cancer. I wonder if the extended stress from the “flooding” might have weakened her immune system. But then again, she seems to have spend most of her life in a state of terror so who can say?
I didn't know Baby Girl had passed away. Thanks for letting me know.
I think that is what Cesar is going for with the treadmill. It's a risky technique, and it wasn't clear whether or not he had specific criteria for using it. He just kept doing it over and over again. I'm not a fan of flooding in any case, but it would have been nice to hear what he was looking for.
I wish I could use more video or provide a link to the show that I know will be available for a long time to come. I have to keep the videos short to avoid enraging the copyright people.
Baby Girl was probably fearful for a long time before she was adopted and Cesar worked with her. If I had to guess, I would say that much of her fear came from poor socialization as a puppy, combined with her greyhound heritage – which would make her a very “soft” and sensitive dog. As much as I dislike Cesar's techniques (wait till you see tomorrow's post) I don't think it would be fair to saddle him with her getting sick.
The incidence of cancer is incredible high in dogs, and I think (without any more evidence other than my instincts) that the past 125 years or so of shortsighted breeding practices for beauty contests are to blame for much of it.
Actually, in racing greyhounds, the incidence of bone cancer is huge. I've read that as many as 40% of them will develop it, which is higher than for other breeds, including all the giant breeds which develop bone cancer more than other breeds. There's no doubt that BG was a Dobe-greyhound mix. And while all dogs can have shyness as part of their behavioral makeup from birth – part of their genetic makeup – the shyness gene(s) in greyhounds is wellknown to those who work with the breed. In greyhound rescue the dogs with this problem vary, but they're assessed from 'nervous' to 'complete spook' and that needs to be understood before anyone starts forcing a dog on a treadmill or pulling them into a pool. (BTW, greyhounds are not natural swimmers as they have heavy bone density and little body fat to assist with buoyancy and to keep them warm. They generally flail wildly to keep themselves afloat, which doesn't help them enjoy being in water over their heads.)
Thank you for posting the background on greyhounds. I have encountered a few rescues in classes, but was not aware of the high incidence of bone cancer or the issues with swimming.
Thank you for posting the background on greyhounds. I have encountered a few rescues in classes, but was not aware of the high incidence of bone cancer or the issues with swimming.
In any context, energy is real. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not.
It's pretty clear that you don't agree with Cesar… fine. It's your right to choose, but taking digs at someone just to make yourself look better only damages any credibility that you're hoping to build. There can be more than one effective dog handler that has methods that work for them. There is no single right way.
I'm not really interested in debate. This is just my 2cents worth since you asked what I think.
I have to agree with Robert. The whole reality show thing, and his rehab business, does focus on the more extreme cases. The negative comments on this thread forget a lot of things – mainly time. You tend to only see a few minutes of what takes place over weeks and months. If you listen to some of the extra dialogue, you find out that some of his more extreme methods such as the virtual reality trailer are used when other techniques aren’t working. But we all have selective hearing. Certainly, my dog responded to regular training methods. So when they don’t work, something else is going on. That’s when other techniques should be considered.
Mo
This is the “in extreme circumstances extreme methods are warranted” myth. It doesn’t hold water. Plenty of trainers are using less extreme methods to rehabilitate “extreme” dogs with success. This has been said many times and never really addressed by the people that claim that these methods are needed.
But we all have selective hearing.
For example. you can read and see dogs similar to Baby Girl, some much worse, find help over here. No flooding, no virtual reality trailers.
But really, what never ceases to amaze is that even when I point blank say ” Baby Girl is very much improved, and there’s really little doubt that Cesar helped her, ” it’s not good enough. Nothing less than abject well, calm submission, is good enough.
We don’t need no critical thinking!
Im sorry but I side with Cesar. Ive been working with problem dogs for 15 years and agree 100% with his tactics regarding dog psychology. And as far as the “woo” energy – its real. You can choose not to believe it. Dogs know energy, people know energy, and as a matter of fact all social animals possess this ability. I have seen a pitbull that was was always friendly and submissive growl and lunge at people that were afraid of the breed.
What I have found in the last 15 years is that most “dog trainers” have inferiority complexes and hate being outdone. It seems as though you have one but you go about in a nice way. There will always be more then one way to skin a cat ( or train a dog) SO get over it. The simple fact that you have gone to such extremes to publish web blogs againsts it – demonstrates your internal issues. Be a dog trainer, be a great dog trainer – but leave cesar alone.
Thanks for the armchair psychoanalysis. It’s much appreciated.
I really cant understand why we should have to use force to get our best friends do things they dont wanna do……….
How can he tell a dog anything thrue a leash that suffocates the dog if it tryes to do anything else than Cesar wants, other than learn the dog that it cant get away?
And how can it be any helpfull for the dogs anxiety to get the tail in “right” position with equipment?????? Fool the mind theory????
No, I either believe in or care much for Cesars methods, we live in 2011 and here in Norway at least its not allowed using coercing and violence parenting to either humans or animals by law longer, why should this man be allowed to do that on tvs all over the world?????
“I really cant understand why we should have to use force to get our best friends do things they dont wanna do……….”
sorry, I just have to laugh at this. By this logic, when a dog snaps at a vet (either in aggression or a nervous reaction) you should say ‘I guess my dog doesn’t want his immunizations, we should leave’. No. You hold the dog still, so it can get its shot.
And mentioning parenting makes it even funnier. So your kid doesn’t want to: go to the dentist, to school, have a bath, leave the arcade, go to bed…. and so on. What do you do? Generally if they won’t listen to the verbal order, most parents will either bribe, or take their arm and drag them.
Seriously though, there’s only so many things you can bribe for. At some point, certain things can’t be negotiable.
To the commentary: 1) holding the tail up to change the dog’s fearfulness…. I’m with you. That was just weird.
2) swimming: I liked how he held her when she was floundering. Not sure how the tail being untucked while in the water can help, but having an additional activity to burn off energy and maybe enjoy might have been good… Good to know about greyhounds and water from the above poster
3) Commentary was entertaining; especially with the ‘woo energy’ and ‘sighs’. Dogs do read mental states though, through body language… and for a lack of a better word ‘energy’. I mean… they can tell when another dog or human is scared, anxious, aggressive, nervous, confident, etc… and react to it
4) Treadmill… as a way to help burn off energy (physical energy this time) I like it, but going for a real run in a park is probably better. Didn’t like the surround sound stuff either… even though I do kind of understand the ‘reasoning’. Focus the dog on running, so they can become habituated to the noises/sights, given that most animals can only focus on one stimulus at a time… It was too much though… and clearly didn’t work all that well if she basically fell off the treadmill.
5) All the socialization. That is what the dog really needed badly and wasn’t getting from her owner. It was great to see the changes in BG by the end
But what does the dog learn when you hold her still for the shot? Yes: sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t bother trying to actually address the underlying problem.
Dogs are very good at reading our body language. I’ve been writing about that a lot here and on Dog Star Daily. Why not say that? Why all the mumbo jumbo? Isn’t the truth more interesting?
Maybe my dog just didn’t like the vet’s ‘energy’ XD
… more seriously though, working on it might be a good idea, but you do need the vet’s cooperation for that. And my experience with small animal vets is that they mostly want to give the exam/injections and then move on to the next room as quickly as possible. It’s probably exactly because they are so rushed that the animal becomes anxious…
Well, I guess whether you want say that the animals read body language, or the ‘energy you project’ it amounts to the same thing: They read us, and other animals… and react. One is a concrete discription…. the other is….spiritual maybe? To each their own
The “Baby Girl” episode has only just been aired on Nat Geographic TV, the Netherlands, so the story is now old. I watched with great interest, as I’ve had several rescue dogs, and dogs wished upon me.
Sad to learn that Baby Girl died a few months after the show. From personal experience with one of my own dogs, the onset of cancer can be slow and extremely hard to detect early
and canines do not articulate their pain. What’s good in the “Baby Girl” episode was that for a lengthy period she received loving and intensive care in Millan’s centre, got the chance of some good socialisation and exercise with packs of healthy dogs, and from what I saw, nothing was forced. Obviously it’s more fun for the TV camera to show the trailer noise sessions, but I suspect those sessions were very short compared with all the other attention she got.
btw, just as there is no single way to bake an apple tart, there is no single way to train dogs+humans. I’m sure Cesar’s way is right and Eric’s way is right and Jane’s way (with her own TV series) is right. One should just pick one system and stick to it.
What disturbs me more is seeing affluent families owning dogs without giving them even one proper daily walk. Others think nothing of confining their active young dogs in unlit unheated garages while they are out for hours at work/leisure activities. More effort should be spent on educating these families than on “dissing” different forms of dog training.
“btw, just as there is no single way to bake an apple tart, there is no single way to train dogs+humans. I’m sure Cesar’s way is right and Eric’s way is right and Jane’s way (with her own TV series) is right. One should just pick one system and stick to it.”
But you can’t take some apples, flour, and a carton of milk, place them on the table, and use your personal energy field to bake them into a tart. At some point you are going to use a practical application of thermodynamics. It doesn’t matter if you learned them from Grandmother or a cook book – the basic principles are there, or you’re not making a tart.
I have never and will never advocate “sticking to” a single “system.” I am very active in the training community and have started interviewing different trainers and animal welfare related people for the IAABC podcast in order to broaden my knowledge base and hopefully that of my readers and listeners. But the people I talk to will stick to scientifically defensible ideas or not get on the “air.”
There is no “Eric’s Way.” It takes a special kind of arrogance to take a thousands-of-years-old-practice that is ultimately based in real science and claim you have discovered a new secret or slap your name on it.
I think I can explain the work of Cesar because of my personal experience in a very deepgoing proces in going within. Or at least I can say that I see that he is working in a way way to help dogs to relax. What I experience now for a few years is that I am going through everything I never lived through. I learned to go through al fear, emotions, tensions etc. I like t put it like this: something that lives, is growing, something that is being pushed away or kept under control is dying. By living through everything I have become aware of myself more and more. If you are tense, two things are possible. If you are triggered by the outside world and don’t live it, you will project it on others. Then you struggle with all of it and don’t live it. If you live it, you express want you are experiencing, without getting others involved. So there are to ways to deal with your tension: projecting it or living it.
Dogs do the same if they do not et the uppertunity to live your tension: they attack people or other dogs. To be able to be himself again, it only works if the dog is living his tension instead of projecting it on humans or other dogs. And in his programm, I see Cesar assisting the dog, giving the dog the uppertunity to live his tension until the dog gets into a relaxed state of mind. With humans it takes a long time to get completely relaxed into a state of being because of our dual thoughts in our heads. With dogs it works realy fast because there are no thoughts, only instinct and a certain state of mind that that keeps the dog tense. When you see a dog floundering or going crazy when Cesar is holding him down, the dog is living his tension and does not get the uppertunity to project it on a huamn or other dog. Only that way the dog loses his tension. These are my personal experiences in my proces and I see the same thing in Cesar’s work with dogs. He is not hurting them, just givng the uppertunity to go through there tension. After all, what is the cause a dog gets tense: human behavior towards dogs. If you want to be your Self, you need to work out your tension. that goes for humans and dogs.
I guess that Cesar is working in a way that goes beyond the comfort zone of a lot dogtrainers. But a dog needs to be a dog, As I experience, I am becoming myself by unlearning what the outside world tought me. The only thing what remains then is my Self. This unlearning is what happens with dogs when Cesar is giving them the uppertunity to do so. When a dog unlearns what people tought him, all that remains is the dog himself. That is what I see Cesar is doing.
I want to respond to the above poster but I don’t even know where to begin. I guess his mysticism makes him happy so all the more power to him. From his comment that dogs have “no thoughts,” I suspect he hasn’t actually lived with dogs. Which is fine–I used to watch Cesar Millan (and give other peoples’ dogs leash-pops) before I had my own dog, so I understand the appeal.
I think learned helplessness is more of a jargon term than an actual helpful descriptor, but my dog definitely shuts down when she’s overwhelmed. When I first adopted her, she was perfectly well-mannered and scared stiff–when I left for work she’d stay curled up in the exact same spot until I came home many hours later, and all the kongs and treats I’d left for her would be untouched. It was really sad.
I remember watching this episode, and the virtual reality treadmill seemed like a crock. And also completely unfeasible for people who don’t have tons of fancy video equipment at their disposal. But I did have some success desensitizing/counter-conditioning my dog by having her run fast next to my bike and pass her stressors. For things that trigger the chase response (like squirrels) it doesn’t work so well, obviously, but it was great for dealing with other dogs, strangers, loud noises, vehicles, etc. Running is her favorite thing and I will sometimes use the running cue to reward clicker clicks instead of food.
Manipulating the dogs’ emotional state through their body language isn’t total hooey though. It works for people–try walking around with your shoulders hunched and your head down and see how it makes you feel, or try dropping your shoulders and relaxing the muscles around your eyes and doing a smile. The tail contraption was awkward and ridiculous-looking, but with my dog I can interrupt an aggressive response by nudging her ears wide and back and massaging her temples. Why not?
I show on Baby Girl, I cried and the end when I saw that she had past. I wish animals could speak to let us know what they are feeling. Cesar did all the things he could have done. At least she had fun on the new place, played with the greyhounds. Most of all went make to the owner and in a better health. It’ s unforunate and sad but she went out happy. Thanks Cesar for helping the owner and the dog out. I do hope she can get another dog that she says she wants.
Sigh. Cesar Millan is fixing the dog from the inside out to his/her best natural balanced state of mind (given the time allowed by the owners) and not using your micromanaging “event by event” DS and CC mumbo jumbo. If humans were willing to devote the time required for that, fine, they would have a result. But their dog is not JUST fearful of stupid fireworks or something, their dog is in a state of overall imbalance.Is it just one thing? Fireworks? ok,, fine do your desensitization. But more often than not that ONE phobia is part of a larger picture of problems and moreover, likely the dog is exhibiting the OWNER’s weaknesses.
Holding the tail up works. For that moment the dog feels a bursty bit of relief. Laugh all you want, but try it.
I am a professional dog walker and pet sitter and none of my clients exhibit their weaknesses with me because I know what I am doing. They are completely different with their owners, or in their presence. This week I declined three steady jobs because the dogs were a project thanks to the owners complete lack of reality and ability to LISTEN to what the dog and I WERE SAYING. The OWNERS are the project, the dog is secondary.
LOL that the author bashing Millan is obtusely suggesting that these people would spend any time at all with any methods DS or CC or otherwise. Until they get it (calm assertive leadership way of being) everything is almost a waste of time.
Like the one I had who said the dog growls at her mother in her presence but loves her boyfriend. DUH. That can be fixed in a week IF THE OWNER UNDERSTOOD her obvious failure. But there was no telling her anything.
I will add, that 90% of ANY dogs with issues could be rehab’d simply by living with me. Ditto with Cesar.
And you’re citing flooding without context. That is one short SMALL component of the total rehab program and in only the worst cases and in Cesar’s hands there is an immediate breakthrough.
I guess that just doesn’t help the author’s position that the owners would have to pay a dog “trainer” for “a LONG TIME” using his methods that are likely to fail because of lack of owners’ understanding of the most basic of principles.
“And you’re citing flooding without context. That is one short SMALL component of the total rehab program and in only the worst cases and in Cesar’s hands there is an immediate breakthrough.” No, I’m citing the TV show that Cesar fans like you tell people to watch. Make up your mind: can people watch the show and learn how to handle dogs or not? You can’t have it both ways, at last not without being dishonest.
And people do pay me, and I do address these problems without spouting bullshit and using unnecessarily harsh techniques. I don’t have to refuse to take clients because the dogs (or people) are too diffocult. Maybe someday you’ll be able to say the same thing.
I love watching the show. I take everything with a pinch of salt though and do not use any of the methods on my own dog! I found this particular episode quite upsetting. I didn’t feel that the issues that BG had were explained or dealt with. The fear was still there at the end and there seemed to be no thought to try any other methods. Very sad.