Nunu is not happy.
Well, I finally came across an episode that I just plain don’t like.
One of the “rules” I established for these commentaries is that I would accept what is shown on the show at face value. One of my frequent problems with what I see is not just what is happening, but why the producers (and at least implicitly Cesar Millan) decided to show it to us. I understand that drama sells and this drives at lot of the content, but after 5 1/2 years they must be aware that many people take the show very seriously and literally hang on Cesar’s every word and action.
This issue hit me full in the face when I saw “Chihuahuas from Hell.” But instead of wondering why a specific scene escaped the “cutting room floor,” I found myself wondering what the point of the much of the episode was. Other than a celebration of Millan’s macho posturing, I really couldn’t figure it out.
“Chihuahuas from Hell” starts with a retrospective of earlier chihuahua “cases” that Cesar has handled before introducing us to “El Diablo,” the most aggressive chihuahua yet! (Said with much gravitas and that scary electronic bass line that NGC loves so much.) I found the epiosde puzzling on a few levels. One of them is that a frequent defense of Cesar is that he has changed and become “more positive” over the years. If that’s the case, why are we seeing, in December of 2009 (that’s when I TIVOd it), a show with clips that date back to his first episode?
In addition to being puzzled by much of this episode, I have to confess I found it more than a little annoying — both the producer and Cesar Millan(as evidenced by his initial reaction to “El Diablo”) seem to think that aggressive chihuahuas are entertaining, even worthy of a bluesy “bad to the bone” montage. As a matter of fact,recent research indicates that chihuahuas is one of the more common breeds to bite, and the researchers theorized that the fact that people tend to take it less seriously may be one of the reasons why. (The show even mentions this at the beginning, but Cesar still finds the description of Diablo’s behavior amusing, and isn’t that montage kinda funny?)
Rather than tackle the entire episode at once, I’m going to break it down over a couple of posts. For one thing, there’s about two minutes of film toward the beginning that I could spend pages ranting about.
Nunu is a chihuahu that was rescued by Tina at the vet’s office where she worked. From her description, Nunu was always aggressive and bit people from the very beginning. We see Nunu’s case for a grand total of 1 minute, 25 seconds.
The first question that came to mind when it was over (well…after “That’s it?”) was what exactly was the point of that?
First, take a look at the photo above. Would you grab that chihuahu? Look at his eyes. Look at how stiff he seems. Let’s see what happened. (Note that the even the guy who does the warning graphics knew that this was dangerous.)
Honestly, where do I start? Why did Cesar Millan need to handle the dog? Here’s a hint about how I feel about that question: if your method of dealing with aggression involves getting bit, or even a moderately low chance of getting bit, there’s something wrong.
The original episode is not available on Hulu or National Geographic’s site, so I don’t know how long Millan held Nunu there. I guess, based on Cesar’s comment about “winning” (sigh), that we are supposed to think that it was until Nunu gave in. Let’s see what happened afterwards.
How does Nunu look to you? What do you think of Cesar’s explanation? “He is invited to live in your kingdom.” Does Nunu look like he feels like a welcome guest? Do you believe that after what sounds like years of aggressive behavior, one submission pin fixed it all? If it did, would you want that to be the basis for your relationship with your dog?
In case you missed Tina’s reaction:
“The most important thing I learned from Cesar is that I have to be more dominant with my dog rather than letting my dog dominate me in everything that I do in my life.”
It’s difficult for me to describe what I think should have been done differently. Under what circumstances (other than being forcibly pinned to someone’s leg) did Nunu growl and bite? Was it always when he was near Tina, or all the time? He may have been guarding her or the sofa, which one was it? Was there a resource guarding component and a handling issue or just one or the other? Without more information it’s hard to come up with specific recommendations. It all ties back to what was the point of that?
The answer, by the way, is the drama. That was the point. It’s a reality show.
More chihuahuas next week!
Good post Eric.
It worries me that aggressive and badly behaving little dogs are seen as “cute” when in reality there are serious issues that could cause a child (or adult) to get hurt. Big dogs are usually taking more seriously, although it's usually still the dog's fault for being aggressive (rather than environment and past history.)
I wonder if he'd laugh it off and pin a snapping, growling dog on his lap if it was a GSD, pit bull or other large breed dog. Well, he's Cesar, he might try.
And the clip gives the impression to people that this method will work on YOUR dog. Good way for someone to get hurt badly, IMO.
Mary
I have to admit that did find TDW entertaining when I used to watch the show.
For quite some time now I've questioned the methods of Cesar and many others “trainers” (of which I'm not one) who practice the “dominance method” of training. They imply that this is how pack animals (wolves) keep order in the wild. I'm not an expert here, but much of what I've read about gray wolves in the wild (the closest relative to the domestic dog), suggests that keeping order in the pack almost never requires a physical act, and that their message can usually be conveyed through eye contact and other body postures, contrary to the body pins and other methods used by trainers to establish dominance over a dog.
One of the problems with TV today, whether we're talking about TDW, or Jay Leno & Chris Rock, or David Letterman is that some people can be very influenced by the things that they say, forgetting or in some cases not even realizing that it's just TV, that drama sells but is often far from “reality”!
David L Mech has some great info on gray wolf packs. In the wild they are essentially family units, and if a younger wolf doesn't like it, he goes and starts his own family. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU
He managed to do it with a Jindo. If I can get my hands on it, I want to break that episode down. Tough to watch though.
Great post. I saw this episode and was confused as to the point of it as well. I'm not a dog trainer, but it seems to me that rather than “dominating” our dogs, it would be great if we would treat them like partners. The reason a wolf pack is successful is because all the members contribute to the well-being of the pack. What if we took this approach: I'll do my part (attach your leash and go for a walk) and you do your part (don't pull my arm out of the socket). Would our dogs feel like valuable members of the pack?
These brief clips speak volumes about Cesar's philosophy and Tina said it all with her recap on the most important thing she learned from her session with Cesar: Dominate. That should never be the basis of the relationship btw dogs and people. What an abuse of trust! I wonder what those fans of this kind of “training” would think if they grew up in human families that operated in this fashion. Thanks for your great work on this important issue.
Partners is a good term. While I dislike it when people refer to pets as kids, I think it sometimes works to look at the relationship similarly – we are responsible for their welfare but I've never heard someone talking about dominating their children into good behavior.
Heh. I replied to Amy before seeing that you made the same comparison! Yes, if someone dealt with another person in this fashion, we would consider it at least dysfunctional, wouldn't we?
Perhaps, Eric, I could introduce you to my father.
Jim, truly you are correct about the wolves but you have to remember that they live in a pack with no human intervention. Rarely do they have to touch one another because they understand eye contact and body language in its most primal form. They are not jaded with high pitched voices screaming at them. There are very few trainers today who use things like the “Alpha Roll” which is a body pin as they are definately in danger of getting hurt and if you do not do it right, you can hurt the animal as well. However in Cesar's daily life of working with dogs he uses this as the highest form of correction…it is not used because the dog is barking too much, it is not used because the dog jumped up on a person…it is used when a dog has physically gone after another animal or human…again used as the highest form of correction.
Mary, at that point in mine and Nu Nu's existence that was the only route to go..I had been to many trainers who used other methods and to be quite honest they told me to put him down. It was not until I became dominate with him (meaning owning by sofa, owning my bed and not letting him get away with that behavior) was when he changed and those same trainers have contacted me to tell me that they cannot believe that he is such a well balanced dog. Nu Nu lives an amazing life where there is no longer any dominance from him or myself. He is lying on my lap right now and happy as a clam!!
It may have been a mix, but they referred to him as a Jindo and he sure as heck looked like one.
Trainers stopped using the alpha roll for a few reasons. While safety is a big one, it's also been suggested that the actual pinning behavior that has been witnessed in wolf packs was initiated not by the higher ranking wolf, but by the lower ranking wolf, similar to the way a puppy offers his belly. The people that have made this suggestion, by the way, are people like David Mech that spent years watching wolves.
The Monks of New Skete, who popularized the technique, removed it from their famous book when it was reprinted.
I also would like to say that while dogs and wolves are related, they are slightly less related to each other than we are to benobos and chimpanzees. To paraphrase Dr. Ian Dunbar very heavily, if you tried to apply chimpanzee parenting techniques to your kids, the authorities would take them away from you.
Ian Dunbar has said many times that he doesn't think dogs are pack animals. This removes him from serious consideration as even slightly credible, demonstrating clearly that he is underserving of any granting of authority status. Quoting him only serves to weaken whatever case people using his name may be trying to make.
Use of “It's been suggested” is another weak rhetorical approach. “Everything” has been suggested at one point or another. The earth being flat was suggested. The suggestion you raise, that lower ranks initiate pinning, falls into the earth is flat, i.e., ridiculous bin. Namedropping as a way of corroboration does nothing to alter the absurdity of the position. Mech, Skete, none of this matters to anyone who's ever Paid Attention to the dogs they see For Themselves.
This passive-aggressive approach to all your posting is illustrated once more in your very first sentence, beginning with “trainers stopped using …”. What trainers? Who said so? Obviously Cesar has not stopped, and He's a trainer. Second-hand testimony like this is inadmissable in courts of law precisely because it of no value. Seriously, dude, describe your Own experience, like Tina has done, or stop parading around the blogosphere misrepresenting yourself as having any.
Just wanted to let all of you know that Nu Nu has passed away. He suffered a broken back in an accident and the trauma was too much for his 13 year old body. I will stand by what I said earlier about Nu Nu and Cesar…if I had to do it all over again, I would not have changed a thing. Nu Nu had the best life a dog could have. Tina
I've very sorry about you losing Nu Nu. It's always tough when we lose one of our friends. He had a good home with you though and I am sure you made the right decision.
The point of my commentaries were never to judge how you (or any other pet owner) treats their dogs. You made a decision to get help and improve your life and Nu Nu's, which is a huge first step that many people never make. You also stuck with a plan, and sticking with it – regardless of what it is – is a second step that even fewer people make.
Thanks for stopping in a talking to us. It took courage, and I hope we treated you with the respect you deserve
I'm neither for or against your postings…I'm just wondering why you have so much time on your hands to analyze this man and his work? If this is the way he chooses to make a living, let him be. He is not harming any animals in the process. I can't quite understand your obsession with him…
You are not “for or against” the postings, but you think I should stop? I'm not sure if you are trying to be disingenuous or if you really don't see what kind of a mixed message you're sending.
I'm not obsessed at all. I'm a professional dog trainer that is frequently asked to defend my techniques against those used by a star on a reality TV show. I thought actually analyzing the show, rather than simply insulting him like so many other trainers do, might help. One thing I didn't count on was how violently his fans would react, even to this. As I said before, any criticism of Cesar is unacceptable to his fans.
It's very sad.
This is interesting. Thanks for writing. I do disagree with you. These are animals we're talking about. Dogs are animals. So, don't we need to communicate with them the way they naturally would with one another? They don't give each other treats and affection in order to tell one another they are overstepping their bounds, being obnoxious or behaving in an unwanted way. The give each other a correction. A corrective nip or a body hold. I've even seen my cats do this. One grabs the neck of the other and lays over top to hold him down till he calms. What is wrong with putting a dog in its place? From what I understand, this is what dogs crave – a clear position in the pack and a leader. “Winning” is not about breaking the dogs spirit. It's just about convincing the dog that you are in charge. If you back up when it acts aggressive, obviously you are going to show your fear and reinforce that his behavior works.
I agree with you that people shouldn't be risking getting bit in order to train their dog. If this is the case and the person isn't prepared, perhaps they shouldn't own that dog. I know that's not a realistic solution, but until I see another way of changing aggression, I will believe in Ceasars Way.
Can you show me video of another way of successfully dealing with this kind of aggression? I would love to see it.
I don't believe you communicate with a dog by pretending you are a dog. I think dogs are capable of telling the difference. Watch how a dog reacts to meeting a human and then watch that same dog react to meeting a dog. It's obvious.
The larger fallacy in your comment though is “give each other treats and affection in order to tell one another they are overstepping their bounds.” Could you please point out where I have said that so I can fix it? I talk about using treats and affection for telling a dog that he is doing what I want, and I talk about using it to change his opinion in a stressful situation. I have never talked about using it to reward bad behavior. That would be foolish wouldn't it? I can only think that people spreading that idea must not understand how things work and are somehow trying to mislead people to make their methods look better.
Your misunderstanding of “what dogs crave” is based on a misunderstanding of wolf behavior that has been transferred over to a complete misunderstanding of dog behavior. Check out this http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/iwmag/2008/wint… and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU Mech was working with wolves before Cesar was born.
What would a video of successfully dealing with aggression look like? Counter-conditioning and desensitization, the proper way to deal with these problems, is a slow process and when done well isn't as dramatic as reality TV. Confronting the dog either makes it worse or shuts the dog down. Cesar and his producers have to create drama or his show would get canceled. You're not watching a dog training show. You know that, right?
I don't have any plans on filming work with aggressive dogs. There are some ethical issues with that and when I am working on a serious issue I am focused on the issue, not competing with a TV star. If you need to see it on TV to believe go right ahead…I think there's a new “Ghosthunters” on tonight. You'll learn a lot.
Thanks for the links! I will read them after work. I am definitley open to learning another theory on wolf communication.
I'm not a trainer or a professional but, I've worked with dogs in “packs” at a free play dog daycare for 6 years. We have 15 – 20 dogs in a group. We separate them by size and temperament. All I know is what I've seen. I have absorbed the behavior and processed it and I know for certain that acting like a leader in that setting is a healthy and safe way to treat dogs and prevent negative interactions and fights.
I realize that is a completely different situation than dealing with a dog in a home setting, but I think it is relevant to consider. When we have to stop bullying behavior, mounting, or any negative interaction between dogs, we commonly will give them a poke in the side with our fingers. This doesn't hurt the dog, but it's intended to interrupt their behavior and focus them back on us. Then we make them sit and calm down.. We don't physically force them to sit. We use our energy and body to block them. Once they are calm and sit for a moment, we walk away and the dog knows it can get up. I know this works, because I see the dogs become more attentive and responsive to the person in the pack. The dog often begins to “check in” with the person and pays attention to what they are doing. Usually, this decreases the negative behavior or stops it. We might have to remind the dog frequently, but at that point it is much easier and often we only need to give a look, make a corrective noise or snap our fingers to stop mounting or whatever negative behavior it was.
I understand this way of relating to the dogs as being dominant over them and showing them the people are in charge. I don't see dominance as a negative. Do you have another perspective on this method of controlling the “kids on the playground?” If we are not the leader, what are we being? If dogs don't look for a leader, why does this work (most of the time)?
In response to your question, no, you didn't say that you reward negative behavior. I was only pointing out that I don't understand how you deal with aggression or negative behavior without using corrections.
Also, in regards to my request for a video of positive reinforcement techniques, my point is that for all the criticism Cesar gets, he is getting results right in front of our eyes. You may not think he is using the right technique to accomplish this, but yet there it is. I'm just saying it would be very effective campaigning for your opposing position if you had the same strength of proof. You can't argue with that. I understand your reasoning for not wanting a TV crew around you during work with an aggressive dog, but what about a personal home camera? That's not invasive or distracting. You wouldn't even need another person in the room. I don't see why that's not a consideration.
Lastly, I can get a dog to walk perfectly by my side and to check on my position as we go by using the leadership and correction methods cesar demonstrates on the show. The dog isn't afraid of me or unhappy. Do you argue that there is anything wrong with that method?
Thanks again for the links!
“When we have to stop bullying behavior, mounting, or any negative interaction between dogs, we commonly will give them a poke in the side with our fingers. This doesn't hurt the dog, but it's intended to interrupt their behavior and focus them back on us. Then we make them sit and calm down.. We don't physically force them to sit. We use our energy and body to block them. Once they are calm and sit for a moment, we walk away and the dog knows it can get up. I know this works, because I see the dogs become more attentive and responsive to the person in the pack. The dog often begins to “check in” with the person and pays attention to what they are doing. Usually, this decreases the negative behavior or stops it. We might have to remind the dog frequently, but at that point it is much easier and often we only need to give a look, make a corrective noise or snap our fingers to stop mounting or whatever negative behavior it was.”
You are interrupting a negative behavior, redirecting them to something else, and then releasing them when they seem to have calmed down. For the most part I don't have a problem with this.
I would not be poking them with my fingers though, because I want dogs – any dogs I interact with – to learn that my hands are good things and that good things tend to come from them. I may need to use my hands in an emergency and I don't want them to anticipate something negative. Poking might not hurt, but it sure isn't pleasant.
“I understand this way of relating to the dogs as being dominant over them and showing them the people are in charge. I don't see dominance as a negative. Do you have another perspective on this method of controlling the “kids on the playground?” If we are not the leader, what are we being? If dogs don't look for a leader, why does this work (most of the time)?”
I see this as leadership. I don't see this as dominance. Dominance actually has a scientific meaning: having priority access to resources. Dominance is not a personality trait, it's a relationship. When Cesar talks about establishing dominance those of us who understand what it really means get a very different impression than I think he intends….although since he seems to change the meaning from time-to-time, who knows what he means? If he spoke like a trainer or a behaviorist we might start to take him more seriously.
I don't have a problem with leadership. There are trainers that dislike that word, but I am not one of them. Training behaviors like wait, leave-it and eye-contact, are, in a subtle and friendly way, establishing leadership. (You can find those pages by searching, it's difficult to link in here.) I train what I want and only use corrections to eliminate what I don't want as a last resort. I usually don't have to.
“In response to your question, no, you didn't say that you reward negative behavior. I was only pointing out that I don't understand how you deal with aggression or negative behavior without using corrections.”
I don't physically correct dogs while they are displaying aggressive behaviors. For one thing, that's how you get bit. Cesar gets bit a lot and seems to think that makes him look tough. I think it makes him look like someone who takes unnecessary risks in order to show off for the camera.
Corrections stop *behaviors.* They don't change emotions. If you correct a growling dog he learns to not growl. Now you have a dog that feels aggressive or defensive and won't growl. Are you sure that's what you want?
Cesar seems to believe that corrections change how the dog *feels*. Do you believe that? If you are angry with someone, and you tell them, and they poke you, are you no longer angry?
My question is “how can you deal with aggression with only corrections?”
“Also, in regards to my request for a video of positive reinforcement techniques, my point is that for all the criticism Cesar gets, he is getting results right in front of our eyes. You may not think he is using the right technique to accomplish this, but yet there it is. I'm just saying it would be very effective campaigning for your opposing position if you had the same strength of proof. You can't argue with that. I understand your reasoning for not wanting a TV crew around you during work with an aggressive dog, but what about a personal home camera? That's not invasive or distracting. You wouldn't even need another person in the room. I don't see why that's not a consideration. “
Yes, I can argue with that because I don't think what I see on TV is proof of anything, especially when Cesar calls a cowed dog “calm.” I don't believe Cesar solves these issues in 15, or 30 or 60 minutes. I know that things happened that I did not see. Why would I edit a session down to only the good bits when I don't believe that it is honest?
“Lastly, I can get a dog to walk perfectly by my side and to check on my position as we go by using the leadership and correction methods cesar demonstrates on the show. The dog isn't afraid of me or unhappy. Do you argue that there is anything wrong with that method?”
I can do it with no corrections. Why should I use them?
I would like to learn how you get a dog to walk by your side without corrections. Do you have to feed them treats the whole time?
Also, have you any experience with dogs in a group atmosphere?
Thanks for responding. I find the idea of making sure hands are only a positive thing interesting. I can see your argument for not poking the dog. I'm still thinking about that.
If I understand you right, you don't have to be dominant to be a leader and you can be a leader without dominating the dog. This may be a problem of terminology on my part. I probably don't know the true definitions that trainers use. Interesting.
And the idea that corrections don't change the emotion. What does? If a dog wants to constantly mount another dog or bully him, what would you do to change that?
Finally, do you recommend any books on these topics?
Thanks!
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
I'm actually working on a blog post about loose leash walking. Unfortunately the video I took last weekend is screwed up – my SD card ended up damaged. Loose leash walking without corrections (and without continuous feeding) is not really a secret. The post may go up Thursday. If not, next week after I get better video.
Yes, I have experience with dogs in groups. Part of my apprenticeship was monitoring groups of dogs playing.
Changing emotions is usually done by counter-conditioning and desensitization. Read the post about Cesar and Baby Girl.
Have you read Patricia McConnell's “Other End of the Leash” or “For the Love of a Dog” ? Great books. Also Patricia wrote about dominance on her http://www.otherendoftheleash.com blog last week. Scroll down, it's spread over three posts.
I'm actually working on a blog post about loose leash walking. Unfortunately the video I took last weekend is screwed up – my SD card ended up damaged. Loose leash walking without corrections (and without continuous feeding) is not really a secret. The post may go up Thursday. If not, next week after I get better video.
Yes, I have experience with dogs in groups. Part of my apprenticeship was monitoring groups of dogs playing.
Changing emotions is usually done by counter-conditioning and desensitization. Read the post about Cesar and Baby Girl.
Have you read Patricia McConnell's “Other End of the Leash” or “For the Love of a Dog” ? Great books. Also Patricia wrote about dominance on her http://www.otherendoftheleash.com blog last week. Scroll down, it's spread over three posts.
@calmassertive; I am wondering why you think that dogs ARE pack animals. Ian Dunbar did ten years of research, observing a group of domestic dogs permitted to live was they wished, and I would take his word on this. Not only that, but his thoughts on this matter are being echoed in the literature all over the world-to identify a dog as a pack animal requires first that you define what a pack is. If you define a pack as a group of closely related animals who hunt co-operatively, you don’t see this even when domestic dogs turn feral. They are a loosely associated conglomeration of unrelated animals who scavenge independently but who will share found items. Not pack behaviour at all. And if you want to further compare dogs and wolves, consider that if you take a novel wolf to an established group, they will engage in aggression to establish hierarchy; there is no such thing as a “wolf park” and yet, we can put unrelated dogs together without incident at the dog park. Dogs aren’t wolves. And interestingly, if you go to any of the established wolf colonies, the keepers know full well that using Cesar’s methods will get you attacked and possibly killed. Something that doesn’t happen with dogs. Funny that.
Further to the Nunu saga; I found the film clip interesting-not in the dog “training” (actually I would call this abuse-I know that the owner is saying that she wouldn’t change a thing and that she went to many trainers without results…but WOW that dog looks like it is dissociating-how sad)-the training was crude at best. What I found most interesting was the sexual behaviour from the host towards the owner of the dog. Turn off the sound and watch; I sure hope that she isn’t really embarassed at some point, cause I sure would be!
Now to be honest; I like watching Cesar’s show. It is entertaining, and he really is great at reading a dog’s body language. Not to say I think he is always right, but there is never just one solution to any problem. I’ve watched Victoria Stillwell’s show too. Also some really good ideas there. However I did watch one of her shows where she told the owners to euthanize their dog… when it looked as if the main problem was that the owners were incapable of controlling it, or even just follow through with Victoria’s advise. As far as I could see the dog should have just been re-homed… but that is going off topic… so: Just going to comment on a couple things that caught my attention.
“Corrections stop *behaviors.* They don’t change emotions. If you correct a growling dog he learns to not growl. Now you have a dog that feels aggressive or defensive and won’t growl. Are you sure that’s what you want?”
–to be honest, if my dog was trying to attack a child, another dog, cat etc. I would be happy with simply stopping the behaviour at that moment…. and worrying about the emotions behind it or the reason for the behaviour at a later time. Same thing if my horse tries to kick me or another human. I am happy just stopping the animal from doing so. Convincing them through ‘corrections’ that that behaviour is NOT acceptable when shown towards humans is my first priority. Mainly because it is dangerous. If the dog is licking me, or the horse pushes me with his nose, my response is naturally going to be different because it isn’t a threat to me or anyone else around.
“I see this as leadership. I don’t see this as dominance. Dominance actually has a scientific meaning: having priority access to resources. Dominance is not a personality trait, it’s a relationship. When Cesar talks about establishing dominance those of us who understand what it really means get a very different impression than I think he intends….although since he seems to change the meaning from time-to-time, who knows what he means? If he spoke like a trainer or a behaviorist we might start to take him more seriously.”
–so you are arguing semantics? Leadership, Dominance or simply “in control” it all amounts to the same thing as far as the dog is concerened. The dogs don’t know what the words mean, they just know how you relate to them. You can teach a dog to ‘sit’ at that word, just point downwards, or say ‘stand’… it really doesn’t matter what word you use, or just use body language. The point is that they learn what you want.
I think that your final comment is the most telling: ” If he spoke like a trainer or a behaviorist we might start to take him more seriously.” First: consider that english probably isn’t his first language. Second: you basically want him to be ‘politically correct’ in how he verbalizes his understanding of a dog’s behaviour. Seriously… call it ‘happy holidays’ rather then ‘merry christmas’ for fears of offending someone. That’s what your statement sounds like to me whether you intended it that way or not. Yes it would undoubtably help others understand what he is trying to say if he framed it differently… but that is because as people we are limited by our reliance on verbal messages. The dogs don’t have that issue. I realize that in western culture the word ‘dominance’ has negative connotations…. but just substitute that ‘offensive’ word for one that is more appealing to your sensibilities and you come to the same result. The human needs to be in charge, NOT the dog. Stillwell repeats that line in her show frequently enough (probably every episode) and she is a trainer that is probably closer to the type you are comfortable with.
I think the arguements about ‘alphas’ and ‘packs’ not existing is equally absurd. Again this is semantics. Pack/family unit/group etc. Whatever you want to call it, dogs are social animals. When you have a group of animals living together they interact, and one or two are usually the ‘leaders’ (for lack of a better term) who choose where to go, when, and who gets the best spots for resting, as much food as they want, and so on.
Now I’m not going to try to state for a moment that a dog thinks you are another dog; that’s absurd. But they are also not humans, and thinking we can interact with them as we would another person is equally bizarre. You can’t talk a dog into seeing things your way. You can train them to recognize words and respond, like the infamous ‘sit’ and ‘stay’, but if a dog thinks it is protecting someone or something words will not get through that mental state. In that I think Cesar is right; once an animal has reached ‘red zone’–ie/ is attacking with intent to kill, words are useless. Try to stop a dog fight by yelling. Won’t work. Dog’s minds are not ‘hard-wired’ for language…. at least not human language. So learning how to read their signs/body language is important so you can try to deflect behaviour before it escalates.
Probably that is the best thing I have learned from watching the show: How to read a dog’s body language.
Same is true with a horse. If you can see that the animal is going to bolt (or do anything else unwanted) you can stop them before it occurs. If you wait till they are already charging, its far too late to stop 1000+ pounds of momentum.
We have to keep in mind that ‘the dog whisperer’ is entertainment. So some stuff (like making the aggressive chihuahu’s seem amusing) is the decision of the producers, writers etc. And its wrong that they do that. There are plenty of out of control small dogs… more then there are of large ones. And it is exactly that cultural view that its ‘funny’ that perpetuates it. People don’t see a growling mini-dog as a threat… so they laugh. And create a worse problem.
“to be honest, if my dog was trying to attack a child, another dog, cat etc. I would be happy with simply stopping the behaviour at that moment…. ”
Of course, if that was the case maybe the guy with the TV camera could put it down and help too? We’re not talking about a emergency, we’re talking about a staged TV show wherein someone is claiming to fix a behavior problem. Does the correction fix the underlying problem or not? Are you sure? After “simply stopping the behavior”, would you trust the dog with that child again?
No, leadership and dominance are not the same thing. They have different meanings. Sometimes using words they way they are defined isn’t being “politically correct” – it’s speaking like you know what you are talking about. Dominance has a specific meaning and Cesar spraying it around like bullets in an action movie doesn’t make it OK.
I do understand that the Dog Whisperer is entertainment. It’s the people that insist that it’s a great way to learn canine body language and that’s it’s OK or Cesar to redefine behavioral terms that worry me.
Oops! That wasn’t a very politically correct thing for me to say. My bad!
Does the correction fix the underlying problem or not? Are you sure? After “simply stopping the behavior”
–thats why I said “at that moment” You only read part of the comment, and focused on that. I never said that the correction fixes the underlying problem. I stated that I would worry about that at a later time, and deal with the moment of crisis. But if you don’t have some form of ‘correction’ when a dog tries to bite you, the behaviour tends to escalate with time and becomes a far worse problem then it ever was initially. Even if correction is merely saying ‘no’ loudly/firmly in those initial stages it is still necessary in some form to let the animal know that you don’t accept the behaviour. Unfortunately a lot of people seem to miss those early stages… and it then reaches the lunging, attacking, dangerous behaviour seen on the show.
No argument that it is a staged tv show. I acknowledged that later in the same post. They are allowing behaviour to happen (even encouraging it) so the audience can ‘see’ the extent of the problem… supposedly. And see that it is possible to control the situation that the owner has been unable to for years. Not saying that this is necessarily a good thing, but giving some of these owners a sense of confidence that they clearly don’t have isn’t entirely horrible.
–yes by the proper dictionary definition leadership and dominance are not the same thing. However, ask 10 people to define those words by their own understanding of them, and you will likely have 10 different definitions. You could say that the president is a leader. And he is. However you could also say that he is a dominant force in world politics. Both would be correct. But does that change his position and what he does. No.
I guess my point really was that regardless of whether Cesar says you need to be dominant, or you need to be your dog’s ‘packleader’ doesn’t change what he actually is doing. It certainly would help him gain some level of acceptance from other professionals if he spoke the same ‘language’ and used the terms in a way that was familiar to them… but to me how you verbally frame what you are trying to accomplish is less important when I can see/visualize what you are trying to accomplish, even if the choice of words might be less-then-stellar.
Besides which tv always tries to (as I put it) “dumb everything down, to reach the lowest common denominator” …. Yes I’m cynical, and I know it. So they sum up his show as “be the packleader” and “exercise, rules and affection”. ~Actually the second one is basically how Victoria Stillwell summed up her show too.
The biggest problem that I see with this show is that people watch it and only see what they want. On both sides of the equation. Like the dog owners who watch it and think that leash jerks, hissing and tapping/poking their dog is all it takes to get a well mannered animal. I think you commented on a similar vein in one of your posts…. The problem I see is that for Cesar;
these things work. Because he can read the animals so well, his timing, and he knows when to back down (mostly… we all make mistakes). But the average owner doesn’t have that and is likely to make a bad situation worse by offering ‘corrections’ when they are unnecessary. Even though the show offers that ‘warning label’ at the start of every show it doesn’t mean everyone takes it to heart. We all like to think we are the experts… and sadly for our delusions there is no one that can’t benefit from an outside viewpoint.
Ha ha– too much political correctness actually annoys me. Apparently I need to work on that
Thanks for putting up with me… I find debating highly entertaining. Thing is: I might not agree with everything you say, but you have a number of points that are quite well made at the same time.
i dont know why there is such a big issue with dominance training, FACT: dogs ARE pack animals the see us humans as members of thier pack now in every pack there an alpha leader, the role of the alpha leader is to protect its pack and make choices from them i.e if a something poses a threat to its pack it is up to the alpha to decide what to do. The pack puts its
full trust in the alpha as it is the most equipt member and theyre very survival depends on them. now you imagine taking a 12 year old and sending him off to the army to lead soldiers to war?? its just not going happen is it, because the child will not have the first clue as what to do and probably wont know the difference between his own tanks and the enemy ones, knows nothing about army life and will possible be absolutely terrified. A dog thinking it is the alpha is just the same, he cannot understand the human world like we do, the noise of a car going past the window could to the dog potentially be a threat to his pack, he doesnt know that it is simple a car driving down the road and that it is highly unlikely the car will attack its pack which can cause an enormous amount of stress on a dog, the pizza guy coming to the door you know its the pizza youv been waiting to get yours hands on, the dog doesnt to him its a possible threat, ever thought why dogs hate bonfire night?? well a dog that is responsible for the protection of his pack hears lots of bangs he has no clue what or where they are is undoubtably doing to be in a fit of panic and stress. how many of you have came across problems with dogs that chew things up in the house wen you are not home? there are not doing it to be bad, imagine you have a young child your are resonsible for and they just walk out wen ever they felt like it and you couldnt go after them? you didnt know where they where going? would they come into any harm? if and when are they coming back? you would go completely beserk true? well think of a dog who thinks he is responsible for your safety you cant tell them your going to work and youl be back later, to a dog you have went off in to this big bad world full of threats that it doesnt understand it doesnt now when youl be coming back so it will be total stressed out which is key cause to chewing up stuff in the home (seperation anxiety ). at the end of a day dogs will never be able to understand the human world so it is up to us to understand a dogs world and a dogs whole lively hood is that of its pack, every pack has to have an alpha and if we dont step up to the plate our dogs will which isnt fair. although it might seem harsh it isnt its a dogs way of life us being the alpha will only make ours dogs live better the can lay about play and live a stress free life with out the responisblity of have a job which it simple can not cope with and dont think by this we are forcing the dog to do what its told because we are not the dog will do what we ask of its own free will because we are its alpha and to a dog we know best and we will only ask a dog to do something that will benifit its pack which to a dog is what it lives for!.. to really truely understand the mind and life of a dogs pack i suggest reading a book callled ‘ the dog listener’ by jan fennell it is a great book which shows how we can give our canine friends the best life possible..
i would just like to say i am NOT criticising any dog trainers methods i think all dog trainers are special in theyr own way i am simple saying that people who say that dominance training is wrong clearly does not know much about a dogs natural instincts…
just to add im not saying poking and pulling the lead are in any way correct or that cesar millan is 100% correct either my post was ONLY about the alpha leader in a dogs life thanks…
after posting my prevoius message i noticed the confusing between leader and dominance, a leader is a dominant figure? and when talking about dogs we are talking about the alpha leader of the pack which is the dominant member so i dont think there is much difference.
The problem, Axel, is wolves and dogs do not act the way you say. Period. Your description of “pack” animals is not scientifically sound. Start with “Dogs” by Ray Coppinger. Find Boitani’s research on free dogs in Africa.
Your description of dogs being “stressed” over simple situations like a pizza delivery or a passing car is exactly what is wrong with pack theory. It’s an anthropomorphic attempt to get into the dog’s head and insert your interpretation of what is happening. An attempt to apply an incorrect interpretation of wolf behavior is being applied to a domestic dog. The idea that dogs chase cars because people are not assertive enough at home is just wrong. Dogs chase things, some more than others because we bred them too! Giving pet owners the idea that if they just act more like petty tyrants dogs will stop these things is a damn shame.
I really don’t know what to say. Do some more research. Find Mech’s little talk on Youtube. Read Coppinger, Serpell, Boitani. Just about anyone published in the past decade. I have heard unflattering things about Fennell’s book. When I look at her site, the solution to every problem seems to be to buy her book. I’m not impressed.